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Where Do you Glue A Dovetail Joint?
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Author:  LarryH [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
This seems a bit lame to post but I'm about to glue on my first dovetail joint and don't really know where to put the glue. I'm not really sure how to describe the different areas as well.

First should I remove the finish where the neck meets the guitar and glue there, like the fingerboard extension?

And also along the dovetail, even though the fit with shims seems tight but there are a few spaces in the joint?

The back of the joint doesn't touch the heel block so that seems an unlikely spot for glue, should that area be filled so the area is tight?

Fingerboard gets glued the same way as a bolt on?

Thanks

Larry

Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Inner surfaces only for the dovetail. The cheeks fitting against the guitar and finish don't get glued. Hide glue here. Hot.

Holding the heel tight is very important. Of course, you'll need to simultaneously glue the fingerboard. Most use PVA there. Titebond works.

Clamp it in place, you might want to use a Klemmsia Cam Clamp or equivalent. I use some bungies over the neck. Everyone says they are unnecessary, but I like to use them. Petros uses furniture straps with the little ratchet. I'll try to drum up a pic.

Bruce Dickey38765.8903125
Author:  tippie53 [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
One thing about a dovetail is the joint is a mechanical joint . I like to get the fit so I have to force the last .010 or so .
   This way I know the doevtial is working and the joint is locked and not just relying on a touch of glue. The joint will actually pull tighter if done correctly.
john hall
Author:  LarryH [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] Inner surfaces only for the dovetail. The cheeks fitting against the guitar and finish don't get glued. Hide glue here. Hot.

Holding the heel tight is very important. Of course, you'll need to simultaneously glue the fingerboard. Most use PVA there. Titebond works.

Clamp it in place, you might want to use a Klemmsia Cam Clamp or equivalent. I use some bungies over the neck. Everyone says they are unnecessary, but I like to use them. Petros uses furniture straps with the little ratchet. I'll try to drum up a pic.[/QUOTE]


Thanks Bruce

OK, Inner surfaces only. I count three inner surfaces, the two angled sides and the larger 'back' that goes against the heel block. The cheeks in my case hold the 'back' away from the heel block.

Should that back area be glued to the heel block as well and in this case does that area need to be filled? Or should I just glue the two sides? and of course finger board?

thanks LarryLarryH38765.9336226852
Author:  LarryH [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=tippie53]   One thing about a dovetail is the joint is a mechanical joint . I like to get the fit so I have to force the last .010 or so .
   This way I know the doevtial is working and the joint is locked and not just relying on a touch of glue. The joint will actually pull tighter if done correctly.
john hall[/QUOTE]

Re-shimming my joint now as to achieve a tight fit because now after finishing the neck and the change in the weather and the phases of the moon and the fact that guitars are evil, my formerly perfect fitting dove tail fits like crap, like I never even tried to get a good fit. I'll just start over...again. Sigh...Thanks for the help and great advice.

larry
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Congrats, you now belong to a small but traditional group of luthiers. My first one fit like yours too. Shim city. Use only wood for shims. And don't glue until you have it right. John is right above, when you have to force it in the last .010, that's perfect dry. When you put the hot hide glue in it's slick slick and will slide right where it needs to be.

My first took eleven hours, second couple three, last couple hour and a half to fit. When you string this baby up you are gonna be proud. (carrot tied on proverbial stick) Good luck.
Author:  LarryH [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks again Bruce, did you see my above post with a couple more detailed questions? Still confused as to where the glue goes.

Larry
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
i feel your pain, my first joint was a dovetail that i glued prior to checking the proper alignment! My first guitar was a great teacher in itself, i'll never do that mistake again, me thinks

Good luck, redoing a neck ain't so bad compared to looking at a crooked neck for the rest of your life.

Hang in there Larry, we're all with you

Regards

Serge
Author:  Josh H [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
I know most of you guys have heard me say this before, but I use bolts instead of glue. It does the same job and is easier to disassemble in the future when needed.

Josh
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
I hear ya Josh, I wanted to learn how to do a dovetail joint on my first guitar.It was a pain,but glad I did it.
I'm now using bolt-on for the reasons you stated.
Author:  guitarjtb [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Larry, when you are doing the dry fit, make sure the fret board extension is matching up on both sides of the fret board. I use .010 strips of veneer as a feeler guage. Just slide them under the fret board between the 14th and 15th fret. (that would be the the 12th and 13th fret on a 12-fretter.) When the fret board tightens up on one side, it will leave the other side loose. Start adjusting before the fit is too close. I stack the veneer strips up so that I can check the fit as I work my neck down to the final dry fit. You will have to take some off of the top of one side of the dovetail shim, and some off of the bottom of the other side of the dovetail shim, in order for the neck to turn until it goes in perfectly. Just a very very small difference in each side will be very noticeable after you glue it on. The only way you can check it properly is with the final dry fit with the shims in.

This is just one more planet to try to line up in this Rubic's Cube galaxy we call........DOVETAIL.

Like others mentioned above. The fit will change after finish is applied. Get it perfect before the finish goes on. Mark the shims that you use inside the dove tail for bass or treble, which end is up, and which side is out. Put them in a zip lock bag and label it for the proper guitar. Let me say that again, LABEL IT. After the guitar is finished, you will have to do more fitting. Having the original shims will save you a lot of time. Retrieve your shims and return to the top of the page.
Author:  Josh H [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Dave

I'm still using a dovetail. I just hold it in place with bolts instead of glue. The best of both worlds maybe?

Josh
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Author:  LarryH [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:17 am ]
Post subject: 
So very helpful. I appreciate the explanation. I had one side high and had a hard time figuring the bottom needed to be trimmed to get the opposite top to lower. Getting closer now and will probably glue today.

Again a million thanks

Larry


[QUOTE=James Burkett] Larry, when you are doing the dry fit, make sure the fret board extension is matching up on both sides of the fret board. I use .010 strips of veneer as a feeler guage. Just slide them under the fret board between the 14th and 15th fret. (that would be the the 12th and 13th fret on a 12-fretter.) When the fret board tightens up on one side, it will leave the other side loose. Start adjusting before the fit is too close. I stack the veneer strips up so that I can check the fit as I work my neck down to the final dry fit. You will have to take some off of the top of one side of the dovetail shim, and some off of the bottom of the other side of the dovetail shim, in order for the neck to turn until it goes in perfectly. Just a very very small difference in each side will be very noticeable after you glue it on. The only way you can check it properly is with the final dry fit with the shims in.

This is just one more planet to try to line up in this Rubic's Cube galaxy we call........DOVETAIL.

Like others mentioned above. The fit will change after finish is applied. Get it perfect before the finish goes on. Mark the shims that you use inside the dove tail for bass or treble, which end is up, and which side is out. Put them in a zip lock bag and label it for the proper guitar. Let me say that again, LABEL IT. After the guitar is finished, you will have to do more fitting. Having the original shims will save you a lot of time. Retrieve your shims and return to the top of the page. [/QUOTE]
Author:  LarryH [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:18 am ]
Post subject: 
AWESOME Bruce - appreciate the effort.


Larry

[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey] [/QUOTE]
Author:  guitarjtb [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Larry,
Have you sprayed any clear finish over the sunburst neck yet? Pictures??
Author:  LarryH [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:36 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=James Burkett] Larry,
Have you sprayed any clear finish over the sunburst neck yet? Pictures??[/QUOTE]

Yes James, The first finish came out awesome but the reddish brown color that looked so great off the guitar looked like crap against the nearly black EIR body. I stripped it and tried again and am much happier with the deep ebony dominating the darker areas instead of the mahogany/mocha.

I am in the procces of fretting and drilling the peg head and will buff the sanded finish soon. I'll post pics in another thread when complete.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Couple of points: yes, only the angled side faces get glued

No need, IMO for hot hide glue. Great stuff if you are comfortable with it;
if not, use Titebond (original) or LMI white. If you have a few shims and
are fumbling a bit in the process, hot hide will start to gel before you
have the clamps tight.

In my experience, if you have to force the last .010" by clamping, then
when you add glue you may not be able to get the joint closed. The glue
takes up space; not much, but it is enough that the joint will not close as
easily wet as it did dry. What I do is get the joint to close tight (so there
is no movement and the board is down to the top) with hand pressure.
Then when I clamp with glue it will go to the same depth. If it's literally
just .010" left to close, you probably can force it down with clamping, but
any more than that may be trouble.Howard Klepper38766.6159837963
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Howard good points. Anyone who has fitted more that a few dovetails will agree it gets easier. I bet in a factory there are just a few old hands that do this job.

Back to the shims. What I do if there are shims is I glue the shim in place Slap in some wax paper, the neck and let it dry. Then I glue the neck. This is really a place where one must learn by doing.

It sure does feel good to be in the company of a Burkett or a Klepper or a Hall or a House or a Propsom when doing your first, eh LarryH?
Author:  LarryH [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:15 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Bruce Dickey]It sure does feel good to be in the company of a Burkett or a Klepper or a Hall or a House or a Propsom when doing your first, eh LarryH?[/QUOTE]

I do sometimes forget the great luthier minds that live here and contribute (like yours as well Bruce!) and yes it does feel good to be in the same company - or atleast in the same room.
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Here is why you shouldn't put glue where it's not needed. This is from a
70's D-28 I steamed off this morning. It had glue on every single surface
whether it was needed or not, and was a royal pain to pull off. It took 3-4
times as long as usual for the steam to work it's way through all the
unneccessary glue to get to all the important surfaces. Dumb, dumb
dumb.

It came off alright, but the neck was starting to feel a little uncomfortably
warm from the steam moving up the "O" beam. And I agree with Howard
here as well. While I do not like PVA on most joints, the dovetail is one of
the few places I think it is preferable. It's the dovetail itself that bears the
load, and the glue is only there to keep that mechanical joint in place. I
actually think PVA in the dovetail and hide for extension makes more
sense, while it seems I've heard of many people doing the
opposite.

David Collins38766.6956828704
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 
mmm.. hide glue.
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